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cools's avatar
Mar 3Edited

As usual, it’s great that you’re casting a concerned gaze over this new schema. But it's not exactly Plato's philospher-kings offering this schema.

Am actually very conservative medically (though liberal politically!) and when I dug into this, the big theme for me was: how did device-makers and interventional types become so widely accepted in this space despite the absence of well-run, large-scale RCTs that clearly inform patients what they’re getting — and what might happen if they don’t? (C1 indeed!)

Loved your point about the uselessness of category A.

No trial really answers this yet. PE-TRACT is enrolling. Until then, we are… aspirational.

But AHA/ACCP is just one set of institutions where (somewhat self-appointed) “thought leaders” gather and attempt to influence what it is we should do.

And here’s who they asked:

General cardiologists.

Interventional cardiologists.

Cardiac imaging experts.

Critical care physicians (see note below of how the one that I could find is like the PERT team publisher)

Hospitalists (not sure any in the cited authors)

Cardiothoracic surgeons

Advanced practice nurses. (!) -- who needs med school really.

Pharmacists.

Vascular medicine physicians.

Vascular interventionalists.

Hematologists. (the one that could find...google her and she's acting like STORM-PE a small RCT that showed an aspiration device was better than systemic AC (no TPA arm!) at 48hr RV/LV ratio was positive for its 2ndary outcomes too, research device backing)

Pulmonologists (guess ones not trained in crit?)

Emergency physicians (saw one in the cited authors which is sad because they usually make the diagnosis and call the consult)

Patient representatives (did they ask the families of the ones whose pulmonary arteries might have ruptured while mucking around or the ones who got pictures of the big clot that were removed?)

Representatives from ACC, AHA, SCAI, SIR, SVS.

Ok — they left out the hospital cafeteria worker.

At some point, if you fish in enough societies that are procedure-adjacent, you will successfully generate buy-in for your “suggestion” to EKOS a normotensive, non-hypoxic PE because the BNP is 350 (and it’s 2pm on Wednesday).

More seriously: MANY of the listed authors are vascular-trained and device-focused. RPVI, MSVM, etc. Even the cardiologists who didn’t alphabet-soup their credentials? Interventional cardiologists. (Guess after putting in tons of stents in stable angina patients that were likely not helpful or harmful new vascular horizons must await in the pulmonary artery).

The one critical care physician I came across is a PERT director. There’s a DNP in there — not disqualifying — but if you Google her she only gets mentioned in such guidelines. , Like I'd get it should it have been a DNP who was a PhD in medical devices or something prior.

This is not shocking. But it does shape perspective.

Other societies exist. The American Society of Hematology. The American Thoracic Society. The European Respiratory Society. They are not nearly as device-forward. For them, if no contraindication exists, systemic lytics >>> device.

From what I can tell of the cited authors, it's a lot American people who are friends and see each other at meetings and support research in devices. Moreover, exact conflict disclosures of the many authors are not exactly spotlighted in a way that inspires deep belief in the recommendations either.

My point is simple: why not ask pain-in-the-butt skeptics like me? Or, to be fair, much smarter and better scribes -- people like you? People with no RVUs tied to putting any device past the vena ceva. Physicians who simply care about patient outcomes. Ask the AZNICS crew.

I’ve seen IR/IC cases go spectacularly well. I’ve also seen them go very, very poorly. What I have not seen is RCT data robust enough to clarify which subgroup truly benefits. (Or which procedure. In my shop a different IR attending seems to have his favorite tool and sticks to it).

And that brings me to PERT.

In theory:

An erudite, multidisciplinary debate.

Go over prior echos.

Assess true acuity of RV strain.

Discuss clot anatomy most amenable to device therapy.

Weigh bleeding risk thoughtfully.

In practice (at many places):

“PE. BNP 400. RV strain (on CT!). Call IR. Call ICU."

IR: “We can EKOS or mechanically remove this one.” (It's 2pm on Wed!)

Patient goes to ICU for babysitting. If things go south, palliation.

These teams are not always built for spirited physiologic debate. I’m usually the annoying one saying: mild BNP/trop bump — we can lovenox this. Or if truly acute, maybe 15 mg TPA and see what happens. Never has a plugged-in cardiologist noted that the TR gradient of 52 mmHg suggests this situation might not be acute RV failure.

Like so much in conflict-flavored guideline making, we will likely chug along as long as profit and fee-for-service incentives exist — and C1 evidence is enough to “pass" like a good C is!

Dkthunda's avatar
5dEdited

Is anyone in the US having PE treated as outpatient? We admit asymptomatic hypertensive patients here…

Also I would be curious what majority practice is around LMWH vs UFH. I practically see everyone C2 and beyond get IV UFH drips.

Functionally PERT team is deciding on if the schedule allows another EKOS catheter or if it can wait until regular office hours tomorrow. These guidelines really don’t give justice to the lack of real evidence of these modalities. I have seen a ton of bad outcomes including death from CDL.

I am excited though we seem to get more backing for low dose systemic TPA.

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